Oh, just keep twisting that knife…
I love Larry, but sometimes he just makes me want to smack him like Edison did.
Don’t worry-Stephanie will set him straight, eventually. It might take a little help from Edison though.
You’ll see on Friday!
GROOVY, KINDA
Love is Funny Like That
Yeah, he’s awfully judgemental for someone who’s a week into a still fragile relationship with alot of loose ends hanging off it.
Interesting how Stephanie’s (and I hate myself for making this comparison) body language seems almost canine when she’s responding to what Larry says. She’s almost like a dog with dropped ears on the last panel.
That’s exactly what I was going for. Like a dog’s tail, Stephanie’s hair is a good indicator of her mood. Remember how it fell when she was so confused over kissing Edison.
I’ve mentioned before how she’s like a dog-somewhat confused by what the humans are doing, but generally cheerful.
Not this time.
I have to admit that I’m kinda agreeing with Larry. I’ve seen a relationship like this go downhill FAST. Anya’s on a slippery slope to heartache and someone’s gonna be the one to be “The Shoulder that gets Cried on”.
Not saying he’s perfect, by a log stretch, but what man is?
As always Stephanie’s just so naive ‘n sweet.
Is there another idiom that’s similar to “a pot calling the kettle black?” It seems a little out of date, considering stainless steel is more popular than cast iron these days. In stores I usually see skillets and frying pans in iron, but not pots and kettles. Or does it refer to enameled kitchenware?
What could be used instead? Duck calling a swan waterfowl?
Old idioms never die; their origins just become more obscure.
how about “pot calling kettle stainless steel”?
I rather like “pot sending coals to Newcastle.”
Is anyone else bothered that Anya is a pedophile?
No, because I don’t think that Anya was checking for IDs when she was having her, “My hero/OMG someone likes me” moment with Jacob.
I’m more bothered that an emotionally vulnerable woman with 0% self-esteem had to be rescued from a potentially toxic relationship by twin service catamites in fear of becoming homeless. Keep in mind that these kids were at-risk of going homeless, was because they ended up in an orgy with a friend of their father’s. Seriously, what WTF is wrong with a parent who would throw out his children to the street so they have no choice but become submissive pets for a mistress to avoid starving or street prostitution, rather than calling the cops on a “friend” who should have known better than to mess with the preacher’s kids and then making them seem like they’re the villains.
Anya hasn’t been sexually involved with any children that weren’t assumed to be adults previously to this revelation, so I sincerely doubt that she has a compulsive desire to mate minors. But even if she was a “pedophile” or more accurately “desperate”, that really should be the least disturbing aspect of this whole situation.
Jacob is one of her former storytime kids, and Anya knew that before getting involved. Since she is such a storytime pro, I would be surprised if she didn’t know her regular storytime kids by name. If this were Larry with a 15 year old girl, I don’t think that would be any more acceptable.
As I read it, Anya chose to initiate a sexual relationship with Jacob knowing he was a minor. The fact that Jacob comes from a bad background only makes him more vulnerable to being taken advantage of in this way. Combined with the fact Anya just had a grope session in public with this boy would indicate that she has a serious psychological pathology (were this the real world).
“Willing suspension of disbelief” lets me enjoy a world of functional alcoholics, super future robots, Neanderthals, and feral chickens every time I visit G,K. A world where no one has a problem with statutory rape, not so much.
You are making assumptions based on laws that are not universal. In many countries, and even states with America, age of consent and/or marriage can hover anywhere between 14-16. Do I approve of people who are under the age of 18 having sex? No, and personally think 21 might be too young in some cases. But, what is assumed to be legal community standards for everyone, aren’t necessarily so.
I also contend that your statement about how the characters approve of statutory rape is inaccurate. The cop obviously disapproves of these two even dating at all. However, it appears she has no evidence that any criminal wrongdoing occurred, which is why I’m guessing she gave Anya a few terse words, rather than flat out arresting her. Larry also clearly has a major problem with it, which is why he’s being incredibly hostile. As for Stephanie, she has no context as to what is going on, so her lack of opposition is understandable.
Even Anya had her misgivings and tried to discourage the escalation of the relationship: http://groovykinda.org/2013/07/10/remind-field/
As I mentioned earlier, Anya has NO self-esteem whatsoever. I feel that this is what lead her to make a questionable choice, which is depicted ambiguously enough that it could’ve been criminal or just stupid without being actually illegal. http://groovykinda.org/2013/07/12/making-storytime/
Again, I do not necessarily find it healthy that Anya is having this relationship. But I don’t feel that she should be in any relationship at all because she’s in really a bad place, where she needs to figure out that she has some sort of worth or autonomy. But, I think to peg her as a pedophile, when she has shown absolutely no predisposition to this kind of behavior previously is really unfair, especially in the context to what else is going on.
I apologize if the numbering seems rude, but that is how I think. I am not trying to browbeat you, only organize my thoughts.
1) “Age of consent” is to marry with a parent’s OK. Statutory rape is 18. I know this is G,K and societal values differ, but you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise it is OK for infants and adults to have sex (i.e. what happens when there is no line based on age, no other inferences please). A homeless 15 year old who was a sexual sub for orgies is in no position to consent for anything.
2) The cop saw the two making out in public. The cop knows Jacob is 15. The cop heard Jacob call Anya his girlfriend. In real life, a cop who didn’t investigate this could lose their badge. I rushed to judgment on Larry and Stephanie because they don’t have a reason to know Jacob’s age. Sorry about that part because it cast them in an unfair and unfavorable light.
3) In a statutory rape hearing, I imagine that the mental state of the adult does come into play in the sentencing phase. It doesn’t change the fact that someone with the judgment and experience of an adult had sex with someone with the judgment of a 15 year old. There are biological reasons why 15 year olds cannot make a sound judgment in these situations. The whole part of their brain that exerts executive control over these impulse-based decisions has not developed.
4) Pedophile and serial pedophile may be two different things, but they both mean an adult having sex with someone they know is too young to consent. It is a gray area when a 17 year old sneaks into a bar on a fake ID and has sex with an adult, but that is the difference between “knowing” it is a minor and “finding out.” Anya knew.
There are so many ways to express sexuality, and the 1970’s were full of that kind of exploration. I am glad Charlie’s G’K includes everything from Prospero and Tovio’s dress up man sex (corset still needed) to the insanely complex robosexual Stephanie-Edison + ? situation. I am not glad that this came along.
JPZ, thank you. I understand where you’re coming from. It’s a very uncomfortable story development.
Even though I understand Anya’s actions, I can’t defend them. Personally, I would never do such a thing. As I said, she committed a Class C felony with her “storytime.”
Officer Tompkins will investigate further. Meanwhile, she’s given Jacob her card, so he can get in touch with her. Anya knows that she’s keeping an eye on her. Meanwhile, she knows that if she asked Jacob, at this point he’d just clam up and not admit anything. And if she somehow got him away from Anya, he’d end up in a temporary foster home until things could be sorted out.
We don’t know yet how Anya feels about this. Maybe this is a wake-up call. She’s a law-abiding citizen (except for this)-it could be that she calls a halt to their relationship.
And thank you all for your reasoned responses. Groovy, Kinda has the best commenters I’ve ever seen. You’re adults, and you act like adults. I’m proud to be a part of this community.
Charlie, that does give some hope that this was not an “OK thing” on G,K. You deal with sex and sexuality in such a fun way as was the attitude in the 70’s. I can appreciate “bummer” kind of sexual issues like the end of Edison and Anya’s encounter, but this one just bent my “artistic license” out of shape. Please don’t violate any funny chickens. My wife quit reading after this story arc, and I would like to tell her it resolved well without worrying that the chickens she likes so much here might have bad things happen.
Let me reply to each point individually:
1- Your statement is factually incorrect. I come from Puerto Rico, which is part of the United States. Age of consent for sexual activity there is 14. Legal age of marriage is 16. Simple age of majority (meaning you can vote, smoke, drink, act in porn, etc.) is 18. In most states, the age of consent for sexual activity is 16 years old, though usually parental consent or age similarity is required, but it’s not always the case. But just because it’s legally permissible, it doesn’t make it any less abhorrent.
2- The cop is probably investigating this, which is why she gave Jacob her card. This is standard operating procedure. But, if Jacob or his father don’t press charges, and there is no physical evidence of intercourse, then there’s very little she can do beyond file an incident report. I know for a fact that in many cases, if you don’t have that obvious physical evidence part of the equation and there’s a date involved, you have no rape case and no one can get arrested. I realize it sounds horrific, but I’ve personally know of cases where this has happened: http://rasputincatamite.com/comic/zoya-wants-to-kill-ugly/
3- No, it often doesn’t. If you are charged with statutory rape and there is enough evidence to convict you, the court generally doesn’t matter a hill of beans. Statutory rape trial juries are notoriously unsympathetic, and judges will often dole out harsh sentences even to first time offenders. And unlike other crimes, including murder, sexual offenders who completed their sentences are often monitored tightly until death. While I do agree with you about a 15 year old’s biological development, I do know enough about the science involved to tell you that the prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed until age 25. In a perfect world, the age of consent wouldn’t happen until at least age 21 (and this is my personal view of when it should happen.) But it isn’t.
4- Pedophilia as a psychiatric condition refers to an abhorrent sexual orientation within individuals 16 and older who are compulsively attracted to children 13 and younger. In American society this is often conflated with ephebophilia which is a similar condition where adults are attracted to individuals between 14-19. An adult who doesn’t suffer from either type of chronophilia and knowingly has sex with a minor, is just plain stupid and a criminal.
I don’t blame you for feeling upset about the situation with Anya, but part of what makes G,K fascinating is the fact that it provokes (often uncomfortable) conversations about sex and relationships.
You raise some very good points.
Anya didn’t know Jacob’s age back at the orgy, or during “playtime” at Eleanor’s. She was shocked to learn it here. Even so, she knew it when she went into his room at her house for “storytime.”
She’s not a pedophile. She’s not attracted to Jacob because of his age. She’s lonely, he’s scared, and they have each other right now. That’s not enough to build a relationship on, but these things happen.
But there’s no question that whenever she and Jacob make love it’s a Class C felony.
Larry obviously thinks she’s making a mistake. He can be happy for her current happiness without approving of what she’s doing.
As far as Stephanie’s concerned, she’s just happy for Anya. She’s more concerned with the kick in the teeth Larry just handed her.
It’s still early in the relationship. Not every one has had a chance to weigh in.
We don’t even know what Anya thinks about it. Remember, she refused Jacob’s advances at first. She could come to her senses and tell him that they’re just going to be roomates.
As I mentioned in my reply to Vas, I was unfair to include Larry or Stephanie since they don’t seem to have a way to know Jacob’s age. My apologies.
Anya initiated the sex with Jacob knowing he was a minor, and she continued it in public with him the next day. He looked up to her as his childhood storytime lady, and he was previously sexually associated with her through Eleanor. This was a homeless 15 year old that she seduced using the “storytime” metaphor from his youth.
If someone used their position of (past) authority to seduce one of my kids like this, I would maintain my anti-gun stance by only the slimmest of margins. Anya’s perspective is not the only one in this situation.
I probably would have had a similar reaction to you in regards to Anya had that been my kid, even if I do have some sympathy towards her. That’s what loving parents do. Unfortunately, Jacob’s father not only failed to protect his children when his “friend” admitted to being in an orgy with them (and I am sure he knew their age better than Anya,) but he threw them out and proceeded to victim-blame both of them, even after knowing that they were Eleanor’s catamites.
If I knew my children were sexually used by a friend, and ended up as catamites for someone who gets her jollies from unethical sub/Dom practices that psychologically harm her submissives, they wouldn’t even get to the point of meeting Anya. Raids and media exposes would be happening. Unfortunately and most disturbingly, the twins’ father’s only concern involved his public image. That is what I find irredeemable about the whole situation.
I might not approve of the relationship, but I am really glad that Jacob didn’t press charges, or that the officer didn’t take it upon herself to do so wither. I would hate to see Anya’s life completely destroyed over this. I’ve seen really good people get thrown in jail and have their names dragged to the mud because of a one-time drunken encounter with someone who looked to be an adult.
As for Larry, someone in a relationship as unstable as he has with Edison, really shouldn’t be finding fault with other people’s relationships.
Vaz & JPZ very interesting discussion, thank you for adult responses to the theme here.
Not to add ‘fuel’ to the fire, but from a UK perspective Jacob is only 1 year below the Age of Consent. (UK 16) So the argument is somewhat confusing to someone outside of the USA. (Our age of voting is also 18.)
I understand that individual states have varying consent age limits, but having worked supporting “Social Welfare” workers I can inform you that in the UK the adherence to that limit, isn’t rigid within that peer group.
I’d also love to be able to tell you that 20+ age differential relationships don’t occur, but I’d be lying through my back teeth. Adult/teenager relationships don’t always hit the headlines as being prosecuted (or prosecutable) but the abuse of seniority of age/position to influence teenagers is a disturbing issue.
Vas; you raise an interesting point in stating that pre-frontal cortex development doesn’t complete until 25, can I therefore ask you what your opinion is of sending people below that age into combat? (Because both our countries are doing just that.) {Not intending to be confrontational here either.}
I’d also be interested in your reaction to the Anya/Jacob situation had Jacob been 18?
The age difference is still large, but the legality of the parties involved doesn’t necessarily mean that the ‘morality/ethics’ involved in a generational bridging relationship are any less destructive or damaging.
As a Taino tribe member, I hold the ancestral view that a boy cannot be a warrior worthy of a spouse until he can prove himself a man. All of the men in the mother’s side of my family served in the military. However, when my uncle was drafted to go to Vietnam, my grandfather who served at the end of WII and Korea went in his place because he felt that his son wasn’t mature enough to fight. I think my grandfather made a wise choice my uncle enlisted when he was ready and enjoyed a long career and ended up with an illustrious as an Army officer. Because of these influences, I’ve always believed men and women between ages 25-50 who either chose not to have a family during service, or are done with child-rearing duties are the best candidates for military service. Late adolescents are still too hormonal, too full of bravado and rife identity issues to be effective warriors. They’re great for institutional brainwashing or cannon fodder, but that’s about it. They only time I feel young people should ever fight a war, is when there’s a domestic attack in progress and there are not enough qualified soldiers to engage in defensive action.
As for the Anya/Jacob situation had Jacob been 18, I don’t think Anya is emotionally ready to be in a relationship with anyone at this point in time, regardless of her partner’s age. She’s too emotionally fragile and vulnerable. I also that the answer to that question really depends on who Jacob is at age 18.
In my webcomic, I find this relationship topic quite fascinating. My mother had a double doctorate in English and Child Psychology, plus a career as a criminal attorney, so this was a topic that we discuss quite a bit and it seeps into my work. For example, I deal with a character in his thirties who gets involved in a relationship with an 18 year old man, in spite of being married to his lover’s 14 year old cousin.
The 18-year-old is very emotionally unstable and the dynamic of the relationship is very toxic and dehumanizing to the younger partner (NSFW): http://barxotka.com/comic/marime-2/
The 14-year-old on the other hand had her shit 100% together, unlike her older cousin. Because her culture expected her to be ready for marriage at that age, she was ready for the responsibility of sex. Just by looking at her, it is clear that she is not physically nor emotionally ready for sex. This is why she and her husband came to an agreement about delaying sexual activity until she finished her education: http://barxotka.com/comic/marital-negotiation/
When dealing with the morality of inter-generational relationships, there are many factors that come into play: developmental advancement, culture, et cetera. My father in-law was about a decade older than my mother-in-law, and one of his daughters who has born in the 70’s is married to a man who served in Vietnam. My father second wife is also 10 years younger. These marriages are extremely happy and long-lived, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that these men married two very emotionally/psychologically mature women. In my father’s case, her was very immature (which is why my mother was happy to divorce him,) but because my stepmom was younger, he could deal with his stupidity. In my FIL’s case, he comes from a culture where kids are expected to take on adult roles early on because of the high mortality rate among people under the age of 40 and other factors mostly related to the perceived cultural value of female virginity.
My husband was already a farm worker at age 8. Many of his father’s brothers and cousins died before age 25. My husband’s marriage to me proved especially scandalous because I was a divorcee and not a virgin, in addition to being older. However, my father-in-law didn’t so much bat an eyelash when his daughter married her much older husband.
So yeah, there are variables galore.
Dragonsreach, had Jacob been 18 at the time, I think I would have had the same objections as Vas and on the same grounds. Anya is too emotionally fragile, and Jacob is both damaged goods and emotionally immature. But, what would be “ill advised” between a 18 year old and a 38 year old becomes criminal between a 15 to 35 pairing.
Age of consent numbers are lines in the sand that differ widely between US states. Until we perfect the ultimate and reliable test of maturity (which even tensor imaging of the prefrontal cortex can’t distinguish), we draw those lines and hope for the best. I haven’t seen anyone make the case that Jacob is mature, stable, or otherwise especially able to consent to this situation at 15. Jacob is the victim in this scenario.
Vas & JPZ many thanks for your replies and the great insights.
I appreciate the time and effort.
I specificaly asked about the maturity for armed service, for a number of reasons, My father was called up at 18 (1950’s) and spent a number of years dealing with the late aftermath of WW2 in Austria, then a further 30 years as a policeman. I on the other hand at 18 knew I was incapable of dealing with either of those roles, it is not until now, in my late 50’s that I feel emotionally secure enough to be capable to do them. I’m just glad I don’t have to.
Once again thanks.
I see the situation being handled very tastefully and with expected reactions from the characters of the story. I see Anya as having a desperate moment, I see Stephanie being motherly and I see Larry being the straight man. And the situation has evolved naturally from the storyline, where Anya is being thrown into this position.
I’ve witnessed stories of successful relationships with big age-gaps, and I hate it when Hollywood or other main media automatically malign them or their participants. I for one, like stories like this one in which the relationship just happens, with no ill will from any of the participants, and then they have to go thru the consequences.
Too many words . . .
My mother altered a copy of my birth certificate (backdated). She told me about it when I needed a new copy for a driver’s license (age 15). My parents have been dead for two decades. I’ve never seen their birth certificates . . . or marriage license. It just doesn’t seem important.